by Chris Barnes
July 24, 2009

John Brenner, the mastermind behind the prog-minded postulates Against Nature and legendary American Doom Metal pioneers Revelation, is always a pleasure to chat with. Not only is the man an accomplished musician and artist but he's exceptionally well versed in the subject of philosophy, so ever conversation brings out new and unique insights. This time, I asked John to elaborate on the creative process behind Against Nature - everything from the writing and arranging of the music to picking the right cover art for his limited edition pressings on Bland Hand Records. The following is the result, I hope you enjoy reading it as much as I enjoyed the interview with John.

Hellride Music: John, it's always a pleasure to interview you because I know I'm going to get rich, detailed responses that us music lovers like to hear so much from the artists that create that music. After many years, I'm ashamed to say that my recent review of "Accumulus" was my first exposure to Against Nature, everything else had been with your Doom Metal band Revelation. It is astounding to me that you, Bert and Steve have such a huge musical vocabulary. Against Nature, although it probably isn't a good thing to label it, sounds like progressive music , but prog without the noodling if you get me. You guys experiment all the time, but the songs are still cohesive and taut, really a joy to listen to from a cerebral and a visceral standpoint – rarely is both achieved where I can stand back and say "Whoa!!!" to a creative sort of phrasing in a passage and it clicks in both the brain and gut. From a fan's standpoint, I'd really like to get behind the music of AN, and to do that I think we need to set a baseline on where Revelation and Against Nature part ways… In your own words, John Brenner, will you differentiate for the record, Against Nature and Revelation? What do the two bands mean to you separately, and how do you approach each from a writing and collaborative standpoint?

John Brenner: If it's anyone's fault that you hadn't heard Against Nature's music until recently, it's mine, Chris. Maybe it's the untraditional way we distribute our music for free on our web site. Or maybe it's that we press only 100 or so CDs of our releases, and these go almost entirely to fans and friends and not to magazines or web sites for review. I'm not good at "selling" our music--we just play and record and give it away... then make more. I do like to see our releases reviewed, especially if someone has given us precious listening and thinking time. But it's not a priority.

As time goes on, the music is becoming more differentiated for each band. Chris, I just realized it's odd for me to talk like this because Bert, Steve, and I just consider the music for each band as different "sets;" we say "we're playing a Revelation set next month," or "what Against Nature set should we play at SHoD?" We never intended for things to turn out this way, but it certainly has allowed us freedom, a freedom that's invigorating.

Revelation has now become the vehicle for doom metal for us. I have over half of the next record written, and it's much in the vein of "Release," with movement in the some of the directions we were exploring with that record. It's music that's in our souls and that we can't ignore. It's the music in which we first found our voice, and I think we still have much to say. Against Nature, however, is everything we've ever wanted to do but couldn't or wouldn't in the past. It's a blend of everything, from 70s rock and progressive rock, to 70s prog, to doom metal, to jazz and blues. But we're hoping that we're creating something new, and not just a pastiche of others' music. Whatever it is we're doing, we're having great fun with it. We're going increasingly far afield with Against Nature, whereas Revelation tends to stay in the neighborhood, so to speak.

The approach to the writing in both bands is the same. I come up with the vision for the songs and records, and I write the riffs and arrange them into songs, always tinkering, trying to make them better. I give Bert and Steve demos of these arrangements, which they listen to for a while. We usually have a few rehearsals to work out the more difficult changes or rhythms, but we don't spend too much time on them because we want things to remain fresh. We realized when we first started Against Nature that there was a point at which we were over-rehearsed for a record. Whenever Bert and I would begin adding unnecessary flourishes to the music, or whenever Steve would play the same drum fills every time, we knew it was getting stale. So these days, we just work out the kinks and record as soon as we can. Steve and I work out the rhythms and the changes, and Bert almost always improvises his parts on the spot, as we're recording. We'll do as many takes as we need to get it where we want it.

We've learned to trust ourselves as musicians, that what we improvise is often much better than what we work out ahead of time. It's always a challenge this way; I think it's eliminated the complacency in our approach. The best part is that Steve and Bert are always willing to try what I suggest, and I think we all stretched mightily in our musical vocabularies for "Action at a Distance" and "The First Rain." I can't think of two better friends to have or musicians to work with.


Hellride Music: Ah, OK, I got it. Revelation is doom, Against Nature is everything else… but it is amazing how cohesive that ‘everything else' seems to sound with Against Nature and that might be an artifact of you, Bert and Steve working together as musicians for so long. You can make even diverse-sounding songs cohesive as long as the characteristics of your shared musical vocabulary remain the same amongst the three of you. I'm interested in the sheer amount of songs that come out of your head… there is a weighty collection of Brenner material archived on your site. I'm curious how you write… are there songs constantly being composed in your head as you go through your day and you write them down as you go, or do you say, "This Friday night, I'm gonna write a bunch of Against Nature songs". Do you have to dedicate yourself to the task of writing or is it something that is constantly going on as a byproduct of living?

John: Whenever I pick up a guitar or plug in the keyboard, I'm writing music. I've learned always to have the recorder and microphone ready to go, because I'll probably come up with something I'd like to keep. Maybe everyone else works like this, too, I don't know, but I don't really write "songs." What I'm doing is composing and arranging parts into songs. That is, I write parts, lots and lots of parts, and I later arrange (and rearrange) them into songs. If one part doesn't work in one song, it might work in another. Parts that work with nothing may wind up in future songs. So I always have this heap of riffs and ideas that I compose into some sort of coherent whole for a song. I'm always writing these bits, on guitar, on bass, on keys, on sitar. Most of the process of writing, for me, is sifting through these bits and arranging them.

Maybe that's a key reason why we're able to write so much music--there's no pressure to write a song from start to finish. When I arrange the parts, I don't really have the result in mind: I just put parts together that want to go together, that seem to fit together. It's intuitive. Constantly, constantly, I'm writing and arranging, with no real purpose in mind, other than to make interesting music. Just this moment, I realized that I paint in the same way. When I'm painting, I arrange smaller parts into a coherent whole and then work on the individual parts until they're right. Maybe everyone does this?


Hellride Music: I wouldn't know. I was creative up until junior high, and then the muse left. I've been a soulless empty shell of a human being ever since. So you mentioned the art thing – you can't help but notice the covers of the CD-Rs. Is this Brenner-composed artwork as well? Is there someplace where we can see the other masterworks of John Brenner?

John: The only Against Nature release I didn't either design or create is "Leer," which our friend Tom Harris designed. Let's see: The cover for "Appease" is from one of my paintings; "Panoply" is my design from a borrowed photograph (with help from Tom); "Safe Dissonance" is an Op Art illusion; "Ghosting" is my design from a photograph of Ypres after the Great War; "Leer" is a photograph and design by Tom Harris; "The Anxiety of Influence" is my design from someone else's photo; "Unfolded" is from one of my paintings; "Descend" is my design from a medieval painting; "Much in Little" is from one of my watercolors; "Natural Blue" is a block print of my design; "Accumulus" features hand-made paper and my own block print design; "Action at a Distance" is my design from a Hubble Space Telescope photograph; and "The First Rain" is a digitally-altered design from one of my paintings.

Masterworks? Hmm. I think the medium masters me more than the other way around! Rather than impose my vision on the paint, I like to experiment, mix material that you're not supposed to mix, just to see what happens. It's the "happy accident" that interests me most in painting, the beautiful and interesting things that happen chemically when two or more materials fight each other and the ground. I like to throw things together, see how they settle, and then think, "What can I bring out of this? How can I organize it more beautifully?"

There's an old web site here with a few paintings: http://mysite.verizon.net/vze39vyi. I haven't had a gallery show in a few years; much of my time has gone into music instead of painting. But maybe I can change that in the coming months. Most of my paintings hang on the walls in my house, and I have hundreds of smaller works in file cabinets and drawers in my studio.


Hellride Music: Impressive! So you're the true artist expressing yourself in a variety of mediums. That makes sense to me as I've noticed in both Against Nature and Revelation, the music takes on a variety of textures in the course of just one song – there is no broad brush stroke. Instead, it's a culmination of brush strokes, some very subtle others very strong. I've always liked that aspect of your work. As an artist, how do you make a decision as to what cover to use? Which comes first, the cover artwork or the album? Is there a conscious effort to match the cover with the music or is there an epiphany-like moment when you're done with the record and it's like ‘AHA!! I know EXACTLY what artwork to use!!!"? Or somewhere in-between?

John: I don't think there's a pattern for what comes first: sometimes it's the cover, sometime's it's the music. The homemade covers have come last, after the recording is nearly finished, because I need a lot of time for the design and printing. Most often, something about the title of the record (which is decided before there's any music) leads me in the direction of a concept for the cover. Honestly, I don't want the covers to "fit" perfectly with the music, in a sense. That is, I like the choice of art to be almost intuitive, maybe only tangentially related to the music or title. I like to be surprised by the connections between the music and art, to discover how each resonates in the other. The meanings should continually unfold themselves. If they do, then I'd judge them as successes, artistically. Sometimes, I just play with different covers to see what suggests itself. I don't think I've ever known exactly what to use for a cover; there's always the chance my ideas might fall flat.

Here's a quick example of what I mean: For Accumulus, I was thinking of something piling up, the long sedimentation of rivers and composting of forest floors, the ways things accumulate, or build up, and nourish or hide or change their surroundings. Then I began printing the covers with the dragonfly images on homemade paper, and they looked so delicate, so fragile, as if a breath would destroy them. It struck me that an accumulation could be small and fragile, such as dust in the corner or pollen on my front porch, or the fossilized remains of a dragonfly. "Accumulus" is a made-up word: it has the word "cumulus" in it, as in "clouds." There's an accumulation that's temporary, isn't it? Besides this, the word sounds Latin and reminds me that even empires, in all their great accumulations, aren't permanent. As well, ancient thought has accumulated in us, as Westerners, just as the music I love has accumulated inside me and influenced and inspired me. The root of the idea came about because I had a pile of songs we hadn't used, an accumulation of riffs and ideas and whole songs.


Hellride Music: Man, you are hardwired for creativity. I'm summarily impressed! When you're doing the handmade covers, such as the "Accumulus" cover, is that you alone, or are you and the rest of the band busy pasting away the night? Or do you recruit the wife? Or is that just you alone, and if it is, do you consider the act of creating each cover a part of the artistic process or is it just busy work to get done so you can get on to the next project?

John: It's me, alone, in my art studio, music playing, the early morning sun shining through the east-facing windows. (I work best in the morning.) I think the first part of your last question hits it on the head, Chris. Each piece is painstakingly created. There's so much variation in print-making, and not all of it good. So I usually discard a whole pile of covers, that don't make the cut. Sometimes, I'm hearing the music in my head as I'm working, or I'll play it over my little CD player. Each step in making a record has become this involved, creative, and ultimately exhausting process, from recording to editing to producing to mixing to creating the art. Sometimes I groan as we're about to start something new, thinking of the work ahead, but once I get into it, I lose myself and it's not busy work or a chore. It's invigorating! And I've learned to live with the imperfections in the art and music, learned that the imperfections can be an integral part of the creation, can be the soul of the work... if they're perfectly imperfect. I hope that makes sense!


Hellride Music: It does indeed. So much attention seems to be focused on the final product and not the creative process, which can be equally, if not more compelling and interesting – or dull and boring depending on the viewpoint of the individual. Since we're touching on the subject of creative process, do you recall anything that stands out to you during the process of writing and recording "Accumulus" that you found compelling? Either in a good way or otherwise?

John: Chris, there's something in that word "product" you used that's revealing. There's the sense of "product" that means, "the result of multiplication." That's just what so much music is (and has been for many, many years): a physical thing made and replicated in order to be sold, like boxes of detergent or something. And then there's the sense of "product" as "something brought forth," from the Latin root of the word. This is how I like to think of the best music, as something created and then presented or brought forth to everyone. For our music, I want there to be something organic about the bringing forth, something grown and nurtured, not something made on an assembly line and marketed. That's always the goal, whether or not we reach it.

Sorry for the digression!

Before we recorded "Natural Blue" and "Accumulus," I had 20 or so songs ready to go but with no plan for them. I noticed many of songs had roots in 70s rock or blues rock, so I separated them from the others. Then I noticed the remaining songs were mostly progressive rock influenced. So by coincidence, we had two somewhat coherent collections of songs to release. (One of these songs didn't fit at all, and will appear on the next Revelation record.) We recorded all the songs at the same sessions, but Bert played through different amps for each, I played different guitars and amps, and I made a lot of production choices to enhance the 70s rock - progressive rock distinction. I must have recorded the guitars for "Accumulus" a half-dozen times, with different sounds. I just couldn't get the tone the songs were asking for. So I settled on my hollow-bodied and semi-hollow-bodied guitars and a certain microphone, and that did it. It was frustrating for a few weeks. But I know it'll be the same the next time, and the time after that, because I just can't settle for some formula and keep doing the same things.

There are so many choices: for gear, for microphones, for ways to record. I've been learning to keep things as simple as possible, such as recording the drums with 4 or fewer mics. That gives an honest, "drum-set" sound. I've learned so much in the past few years from reading how studios recorded in the 60s and 70s, and from my own experimenting as we record. I have some crazy, backward ideas for recording in the future, so we'll see how that goes! However, it's not as if we're committed to analogue and tape recording. We have a digital recording board and I mix in the computer. What I want is a warm, mellow, dynamic sound for our music. I hope "Accumulus" came out like that. I refuse to make our records sound like nearly everything produced these days--I'm not going to squash the dynamics to make the record as loud as possible, I'm not going to cut all the midrange frequencies. I don't want our music to sound like what passes for "great production" these days in heavy music. I can't stand to listen to modern productions; they hurt my ears. When I'm producing and mixing our records, I often go back to Rush's "A Farewell to Kings" (and lately, ZZ Top's "Tres Hombres") to compare our levels to theirs, to compare the dynamic ranges of the two. I love that music for a reason... and each day I seem to discover new reasons.


Hellride Music: Dude, that is beautiful, I can't tell you how much I appreciate your organic approach – and your ability to use digital technology to mix, but not be tempted to process the crap out of it. So many heavy music recordings from major labels are processed to the point of sterility. The entire recording sounds like it was put together in an assembly line. Triggered drums and click tracks are the worst offender. Then we have those from the underground which like to turn up the low end to silly levels… but that's another topic all together. It's nice to see that you actually do treat the production as art – so Against Nature is an artistic work from start to finish. The creation, the artwork, the recording and mixing, everything. That's what's nice about having music as a hobby – you can take your time, not worry so much about deadlines, promotion, reviews and ‘shifting units'.

So where does the rest of the summer take you, John? What's on tap?

John: We have a few shows to play, as well as the Born Too Late festival and SHoD X. But our real focus, as always, is on recording. We have two Against Nature records ready to record, and we're already into recording the next Revelation record. At the moment, I'm printing the covers for Action at a Distance. I've made three series of mono prints; I just need to fix them, mount them, and then sign and date them. I've also bought an 8-track reel to reel recorder, so I'm looking forward to recording with it and experimenting. Besides all this... work and life, biking, bird-watching, camping, travelling, listening to music, learning what makes great records great… I wish I had more time.


Hellride Music: Me and you both, my good man!! You are definitely making the most of life, and I love to hear this. Inspires me to get the hell off the computer and out there in the world. Please keep us posted on all new John Brenner associated events. Many thanks for the interview, please take us out with something incisive, witty, relevant or all three if it so suits you.

John: Chris, you're asking the least witty, least incisive, least relevant person you'll ever know to do the impossible. Thanks for the chat and questions!


Purchase Plusperfect limited edition vinyl 7" at the Hellride Music Superstore

Read the Hellride review of Accumulus

Visit the Against Nature forum and their website at www.againstnature.us

ogrerock

What a great interview. John, as always, impresses me with the thoughtfulness and intelligence in his responses. Nice one, Chris!

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winoguy

Great interview. And to think that John just walked away from music for years. The floodgates have opened and the raging musical ideas are showing no signs of slowing yet.

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PETE

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Anyone interested in trading cdrs email me at peterlugo6@comcast.net I have around 3100 titles of doom, NWOBHM, thrash, hardcore, grindcore, black, death, 70's, classic, sludge, stoner etc.

MassDoomFan

Awesome!!

Chris is great interviewer & John is a fascinating artist...

Chris

I could interview Brenner for days. I kept thinking of questions after I had already finished up the interview. Hopefully, if JB is game, we can do 'Part II'.

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WizardofVoid

Another great Brenner interview. His approach toward music is admirable. It shocks me how much he and I seem to have in common (when it comes to writing and recording) and how much it seems like our viewpoints run parallel to each other...
His comments on how he creates his coverart hits so close to home it's scary.

I will say this, (and I believe I've said this in the past... but it is worth echoing). John Brenner is an ambassador for our style of music. He is well spoken, open minded and he comes off as very intelligent. I can't stand when I read an interview with someone who sounds completely baked out of their mind.

My utmost respect goes out to the man/musician/producer/artist

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Confusion

Thanks for reading this, friends. And thanks, Chris, for surviving the hurricane of my long-winded answers. If a Part II is needed or wanted, I promise to be more concise.

H: When people ask, I tell them you've been doing the same things for the same reasons, too. When I'm feeling like I don't know whether we're doing things the right way, I can take courage knowing at least we're not alone.

J

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WizardofVoid

Yeah, you're definitely not alone brother.
Who knows... Somewhere down the line you and I may find ourselves in the same studio together... or.. perhaps that might be a sign of the apocalypse.

Either way I'd love to bounce stupid recording tricks and ideas with ya.
Sincerely
H

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