zeitgeist, the movie

[alobar]

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

any of you americans have watched it? would like to know your thoughts.
it's captivating, but a coupla bits are quite suspicious... the one about the tax, for example?

[Scott]

Sorry... I can't subject myself to watching it because just the idea of some of it gets me too wound up, especially the 9/11 stuff, since unlike some random person(s) spouting off on the Internet, I was actually there in NYC to see happen, live... and to which I can sum up the crux of my feelings on those conspiracy theories, and the people who believe and pontificate on them, by saying-- you can't have it both ways.

Bush and the US government can't simultaneously be bumbling, incompetent fools and at the same time capable of pulling off hugely intricate plans, keeping them completely free from having absolutely any actual proof of their existence come out (either through laziness, stupidity or even a good old "greedy American" money-grab) while executing them flawlessly, exactly as planned.

Anyone who's ever had to deal with the Department of Motor Vehicles, Post Office, or any other government-related agency should know how insanely preposterous that concept is.... so... "controlled demolition" of the Twin Towers-- immediately following the extremely anti-controlled-situation acts of purposely flying planes into them?!?!?

Maybe if one additional window blew out 60 stories down from the impact, there were a couple of fizzling little flare-ups scattered here and there, and the fucking planes just hung there in the air while a bunch of overall-wearing dudes came scampering out of nowhere trying to kick the buildings down or something (or more likely, one guy kicked while the others stood around and watched), then yeah, totally, government conspiracy to knock the buildings down... that'd make sense as far as an inept government plan being carried out. But two perfect shots, everything goes "just as planned", masterminded by the same guy and government these same people like so much to ridicule for their incompetence? Yeah, right.

I also think it's highly amusing and ironic that many of the same people who buy into these theories, based purely on speculation, and what other people tell them to believe, on faith, with absolutely *zero* proof to back it up-- scientific or otherwise-- are the same people who use the exact opposite argument to support their belief that there can be no God.

And just so there's no misunderstanding, I'm not making an argument here either for or against Bush & the US government or whether or not God exist, etc., just saying, again-- you can't have it both ways just because it's convenient for you to be able to use the exact same logic both for or against something, depending on whichever diametrically opposed argument you happen to be making at the time.

... but I understand how, for a lot of people, it's much easier to watch a glorified music video and fall in line with the rest of the sheep than actually put some logical thought into something and think for yourself, and maybe consider how some of your own beliefs and opinions might or might not mesh with others you have.

[Scott]

the one about the tax, for example?

For whatever it's worth...

http://www.irs.gov/taxpros/article/0,,id=159932,00.html

[alobar]

wow, that's the longest post i've ever seen you make and i'm exceptionally flattered. :)
as far as i'm concerned, you could have ended it on "i was actually there", but thanks for the link and additional argumentation...

[Scott]

Well, I used to rival a certain Boswell for sheer post length and argumentation, but it's been quite some time since then... that stuff can really be draining after a while.

Anyway, it's obviously not a subject I'm exactly happy to deal with, but you're welcome just the same.

[Chris]

Sanfratello is the master of the pragmatic, well-reasoned, spell-checked n’ punctuated manifesto. What you see here is nothing. His power –rants can swallow pages like whales swallow plankton and have the capacity to rend the reader mute, blind and dumb.

I haven’t watched this, it’s low on my priority list, but I’m always amazed how otherwise rational people get sucked into the whale-of-a-tale conspiracy theories based on little or no hard evidence to the contrary. Look how our society works… if someone with any credibility had any hard evidence to back any of this up, they would have sold it to OK! magazine for a cool million. Fuck, McCellan (et al… lost count on how many sold out Bush) sold out his boss and nothing happens to him but a sweet publishing deal and an interview on Larry King. You'd at least expect Guy Ritchie and Madonna have her brother rubbed out, but she loves the publicity and, in the end, it's a paycheck all around for all of them.

Now if we’re talking about conspiracy theories that have some predicate of rational thought – like Rove, Libby, Gonzalez, etc exacting revenge on Joe Wilson by outing his wife’s CIA connection or fire Democratic U.S. Attorneys. Or going to war based on evidence known to be faulty at best, then I’m all ears.

[Karppinen]

I'm not american. I've seen it and I couldn't take it seriously after 15 minutes. Thoughtprovoking? Yes? To be taken seriously? No.
By the way, has anybody seen any Adam Curtis' documentaries, for instance The Power of Nightmares? That's really interesting, scary and based on facts, not speculation or fantasy.

[waverider]

Now if we’re talking about conspiracy theories that have some predicate of rational thought – like Rove, Libby, Gonzalez, etc exacting revenge on Joe Wilson by outing his wife’s CIA connection or fire Democratic U.S. Attorneys. Or going to war based on evidence known to be faulty at best, then I’m all ears.

I think that's exactly what annoys me most about unsupported, hair-brained conspiracy theories is that there is quite a bit going on with national governments or multinationals or NGOs or private, elite groups that goes unnoticed because of the Truthers or other cabalists are way off base and making so much noise about it.

For example, the CIA went into Somalia and Kenya in 2006, the US hired DynCorp with $10 million of taxpayer bucks to place merecenary advisors in Somalia, then we supported Ethiopia in attacking Mogadishu and put CIA interrogation personnel and facilities on the Kenyan borders and in Ethiopia to question refugees - all in violation of international law and with no declaration of war. But because this was actually researched and occasionally reported in US and international mainstream media, I guess it is less interesting than some incredible government 9/11 coverup.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17935971/
http://agonist.org/20070314/u_s_allies_in_africa_may_have_engaged_in_secret_pr isoner_renditions

This is just an example, it doesn't have to be the US govt. It could be the crappy job the UN is doing in Darfur, the insider coziness that leads manipulation in the stock market or commodity futures, or whatever, but people would rather spend time worrying about UFOs, faked moon landings, the Trilateral Commission, and directed energy weapons.

If an informed populace is supposed to be the foundation of democracy, people in the US are doing a pretty crappy job of taking advantage of the Information Age.